Session Start: Wed Nov 29 19:37:19 2000 [19:37] * Logging #Opinionated to 'logs\#opinionated29112000.opcom.20001129.log' [19:37] and Myk [19:37] and all [19:37] hi Sue [19:37] wb Sue [19:37] Hi Sue [19:37] ta Jill :) [19:37] back [19:37] Hi Michael [19:37] hi sue - again :-) [19:37] copycat [19:37] thanx [19:37] hi whitehorse [19:37] again [19:37] and proud of it [19:37] lol [19:38] Hi Andy (hope the log hasn't started yet) [19:38] lol [19:38] yes, but I can edit :) [19:38] good job [19:38] Is Corin coming? [19:38] okay, do we wish to elect a chair-person? [19:38] yes [19:39] Not me! [19:39] yes [19:39] Who then? [19:39] one aye [19:39] any more? [19:39] *** Joins: lordpercy (Lordpercy@=gnqgqo77-4-51-638.btinternet.com) [19:39] Scotgirl? [19:39] yes [19:39] Hi LP [19:39] Hi LP [19:39] hi LP [19:39] hi lp [19:39] lol [19:39] Hi LP [19:39] Two votes to elect a chair [19:39] Good evening to you all! [19:39] three, TK [19:39] well everyones beat me to the normal greeting so yo to lp [19:40] Liz is fine with me [19:40] I got you and whitehorse Sue [19:40] and you [19:40] I was answering yes to the question about Corin coming [19:40] lol [19:40] oh [19:40] lol [19:40] I nominate Myk [19:40] *** Joins: corin (dooyoo@=Oiuzjq0.plotsuper.com) [19:40] is that how it works? [19:40] seconded [19:41] *** Quits: corin (dooyoo@=Oiuzjq0.plotsuper.com) (QUIT: User exited) [19:41] evening Corin [19:41] oh [19:41] Myk or Nec [19:41] Okay, lets have some candidates for Chair-person [19:41] bye corin [19:41] Thirded if necessary [19:41] Myk [19:41] Myk [19:41] Jill - only one nomination allowed [19:41] Against his will [19:41] lol [19:41] *** Joins: Corin (dooyoo@=4Qqumu0.plotsuper.com) [19:41] I don't mind. I like everyone. [19:41] lol Jill [19:41] Welcome back Corin [19:41] everyone likes Jill [19:41] evening all! [19:41] ;o) [19:41] hi Corin [19:41] (vote Nec) [19:41] you'll get yourself a reputation jill [19:41] hello corin [19:42] ji corimn [19:42] hi corin [19:42] lol [19:42] can't type [19:42] hi corin [19:42] hi corin [19:42] wb Corin [19:42] Good evening Corin [19:42] That DJ debate - he he he [19:42] lol [19:42] I'll nominate ME - but I'll not be here :( [19:42] awww [19:42] Okay, chaps, let the autogreet do the his now or whisper them :) [19:42] nec please! for chair! [19:42] eh? [19:42] oh [19:42] What was the topic again? (I forgot) [19:42] lol Nec [19:42] lol [19:42] See, I'd be a bad chair [19:42] ratings [19:42] Okay I have nominations for Nec and Myk [19:43] I nominate TK [19:43] is there a second for Jill [19:43] i second jill [19:43] No [19:43] i'll 3rd it [19:43] Thanks [19:43] lol [19:43] ok i won't [19:43] I third Jill [19:43] jill good for me :) [19:43] 4th then [19:43] Nec Myk and Jill then [19:43] No more nominations [19:43] I want 'aye' votes only no nays [19:43] First who votes aye to Nec [19:44] aye [19:44] aye [19:44] aye [19:44] aye [19:44] Now, who votes Aye for Myk [19:44] aye [19:44] aye [19:44] aye [19:44] aye [19:44] finally, Who votes aye for Jill [19:44] aye [19:45] aye [19:45] aye [19:45] aye [19:45] (is there a tiebreaker question?) [19:45] lol [19:45] Even split [19:45] lol [19:45] lol [19:45] I demand a manual recount [19:45] Can I withdraw? [19:45] rofl [19:45] check for chads and dimples [19:45] Okay we need a breaker [19:45] lol [19:45] sorry - nay for Jill - I hate her [19:45] I love all 3 of 'em [19:45] if jill wants to withdraw surely her 4 should be asked for second choice [19:45] if jill wants out let it be nec [19:45] lol behave [19:46] why not Mtk? [19:46] myk [19:46] okay just those who voted for jill [19:46] nec [19:46] who votes aye for Nec? [19:46] aye [19:46] aye [19:46] aye [19:46] Nec wins. [19:46] Nec it is [19:46] aye [19:46] Only one other so Nec, you're it :P [19:47] s'ok Myk, we'll take it to the Supreme Court [19:47] Oh, what does that mean? [19:47] this ain't over [19:47] Blimey, what a relief. [19:47] I want postal votes counted too [19:47] you're it, Nec - catch me! [19:47] i'm fine with it, Sue. I'll come back in five years... [19:47] has Corin gone? ;-) [19:47] lol Myk [19:47] I'll be an overpriced lawyer if you want myk [19:47] nope! [19:47] I vote Corin to chair [19:47] Okay Nec, first it means you shoulda read the damn guidelines :) [19:47] lol TK [19:47] Nervous ; ) [19:48] are you impressed with the democracy in here, Corin? [19:48] It means you offer and give the floor each time Nec [19:48] cos you shouldn't be [19:48] what kind of day have you had Corin? [19:48] Very, a real lesson for the americans! [19:48] lol [19:48] My day started in the dentist . . . . not been much better since [19:48] Euch. Dentist. [19:48] oh dear [19:48] this is worse than the dentist? [19:48] lol [19:48] shiver at the thought [19:48] we'll make that toothache seem a pleasant dream yet Corin :) [19:48] thaths not phunny [19:48] lol [19:48] lol [19:49] ok we ready? [19:49] fine here [19:49] * lordpercy nudges Nec [19:49] lol LP [19:49] Yes okay, everybody order please [19:49] lol [19:49] We welcome Corin and thank him for spending his time to hear us [19:50] Thanks for having me [19:50] The topic today is the DooYoo Ratings system. [19:50] Does anybody wish to talk on the first point: Is the current system working? [19:50] Aye [19:51] Is that all? [19:51] Aye! [19:51] aye [19:51] aye [19:51] if someone starts this will no doubt start people off [19:51] Okay TK, the floor is yours [19:51] May I? [19:51] if you see what I mean [19:52] I feel that the current system is not working as well as hoped [19:52] I feel that many people are reluctant to give negative ratings [19:52] either for fear of hurting feelings [19:52] *** Joins: caro (dooyoo@=KXRP4J4Q7Y.ipt.aol.com) [19:52] or for fear of reprisals [19:52] yes I worry about that tk [19:53] Me too [19:53] *** Joins: lily7star (dooyoo@=cz683-hsfzsev-cmazddj.i-way.co.uk) [19:53] and I feel that far too often the ratings are given for the benefit of the author, when it should instead be for the benefit of the next reader [19:53] I give back the floor [19:53] may I ask a question? [19:53] Thank you TK. Go ahead Sue [19:54] Then Corin can reply (he was next speaker on my list) [19:54] I would just like to know what Corin feels about the ratings system - does the dooyoo team see it the same way as TK and a lot of us? [19:54] I give Corin the floor to reply [19:54] Yes [19:54] It more upsets me than worries me . . . . . [19:55] It should work just fine but the usership tends to abuse it on a scale that will eventually negate it [19:55] and this doesn't really help people make better decisions [19:56] so we are looking for solutions [19:56] because this is a really tricky one . . . . [19:56] How do we serve all needs better? [19:56] I would like to open this one up [19:57] can I speak soon? I have to go in 15 mins [19:57] We can make that our next topic of converstation, a few other people wish to speak first [19:58] ken next [19:58] We'll here from Kensplace next, then if it is getting late Andy can jump in [19:58] (hear sorry). The floor is yours Ken [19:58] I dont mind if andy goes first [19:58] Okay, Andy you may go ahead [19:59] thankyou [19:59] I have said many times that the word "not usefull" basically means "useless" and is therefore seen as an insult to many. Also the word "somewhat usefull" seems patronising to me. Is it an option to simply re-phrase these at all? Also is it too late to add an extra option? [19:59] -> -Andy_ArT_Trigg- I'll be discussing that for certain later Andy [20:00] I'll give the floor to Corin to answer those, although they would be more suited to the forum [20:00] Ta. It is never too late to add anything on dooyoo, we have to find a solution that fits and that is not brought to it's knees [20:01] I'm asking if it's an option. Which is more suited to here [20:01] I feel that the money is the root of the problem [20:01] and yes, there is the possibility of another option [20:01] the question is though - how to structure [20:02] the system and the attitudes held by users when using it [20:02] becuase there are a lot of not at all useful ops with VU ratings and it puts people off [20:02] We will come to discussing improvements later. [20:03] re-phrasing could be the answer [20:03] I pass the floor now to Ken, the topic is still is the current system working [20:03] Thanks [20:04] Ok, I feel that the current system is working to some etent, but does need a form of improvement [20:04] As has been said, too many people are scared to rate honestly [20:04] *** Quits: Corin (dooyoo@=4Qqumu0.plotsuper.com) (Connection reset by peer) [20:04] *** Quits: caro (dooyoo@=KXRP4J4Q7Y.ipt.aol.com) (Connection reset by peer) [20:04] *** Quits: triplecthegame (dooyoo@=kqVS788C86.ipt.aol.com) (Connection reset by peer) [20:05] *** Quits: JillMurphy (dooyoo@213.108.39.lj29=) (Connection reset by peer) [20:05] Keep going - I'll paste when they return [20:05] Maybe a bit controversial Ken 8-) [20:05] ok [20:05] lol Nec [20:05] lol Nec [20:05] i was wondering if id said something! [20:05] lol [20:05] *** Quits: lily7star (dooyoo@=cz683-hsfzsev-cmazddj.i-way.co.uk) (Connection reset by peer) [20:05] oh heck [20:05] Also somepeople are abusing the system, but that will always happen to some extent [20:05] *** Joins: Corin (dooyoo@=0wnxyc7.plotsuper.com) [20:06] Also somepeople are abusing the system, but that will always happen to some extent [20:06] (that's all you missed Corin) [20:06] *** Joins: JillMurphy (dooyoo@213.108.39.zd88=) [20:06] thanks [20:06] There is also the problem with the way the system actually places opinions in the list [20:06] Welcome back to those who stepped outside, You haven't missed much but Ken still has the floor [20:07] And I think that people (i was, and so was my sister) are confused at first [20:07] by how you are meant to rate, are you rating useful etc based upon you liking of the opinion, or its usefulness to dooyoo/others [20:07] *** Joins: triplecthegame (dooyoo@=OLCK052B15.ipt.aol.com) [20:08] Ok, thats all from me for now :) [20:08] Thank you Ken. Whitehorse was the last speaker on the current system [20:08] The floor is yours [20:08] Thanks [20:09] Okay - I just wanted to say that I'd like to see the system extended in some way [20:09] Saying you can agree or diagree for eg [20:09] a bit like writtenbyme or is it themestream [20:09] And I agree with ken :-) [20:09] We can discuss that more when we talk about suggested improvements [20:09] okay [20:09] msg TheKnight But it will improve over the weeks. Nec is a star. [20:10] lol [20:10] *** Joins: lily7star (dooyoo@=8J206-dqdranm-dpfpohd.i-way.co.uk) [20:10] So sorry [20:10] Hello Jill [20:10] oops [20:10] Does anybody else wish to make a quick comment on the current system before we move to the next topic? [20:11] guess not [20:11] The next topic is the question raised by Corin [20:11] no [20:11] How do we serve all needs better [20:11] Who wishes to speak on that? [20:11] aye [20:11] *** Quits: Andy_ArT_Trigg (Andy@213.48.196.BZ720=) (QUIT: User exited) [20:11] Andy said 'Bye all' btw. [20:12] aye [20:12] aye [20:12] The next topic will be suggestions for improvements but the floor now passes to TK on serving needs [20:12] Thanks [20:13] To serve all needs better I feel we must realise what they are... [20:13] The need to have writers rewarded commensurate with effort to encourage further effort [20:13] the need for browsers (non members) to find good advice quickly [20:14] and the need for dooyoo to have valuable content that attracts advertisers and makes users proud to contribute [20:14] any system should address ALL of those needs [20:15] if writers are not rewarded why write. If dooyoo is ever seen as poor quality they will lose power to draw funds (not happening now) and if content is poor readers will not read [20:15] I return the floor [20:16] Thank you TK, and can people tell me when they have finished, it will speed things up [20:16] The floor now passes to Ken [20:16] thanks [20:17] I agree with TheKnight, DooYoo is about content, and for people to supply that content [20:17] they have to feel rewarded (whether in form of pride, or monetary rewards) [20:17] They should also not feel cheated by the abusers, who demean their pride/rewards [20:17] *** Joins: zebra (dooyoo@=jWx700-aa6-tap0k.swi.ntl.com) [20:18] And also devalue DooYoo content [20:18] The overall feel of dooyoo is still very good, a nice community [20:18] -> -zebra- Hi zebra - I'll open a private chat window to help you catch up if you want [20:18] but as it gets more popular the percentage of poor ops will continue to grow, unless [20:19] much effort is placed into identifying and educating or stopping. [20:19] I pass the floor back [20:19] Thank you Ken, finally on serving needs the floor passes to Whitehorse [20:19] Um - Okay I had the other question a while ago [20:20] Does that count now? [20:20] Nope 8-) That is in the next topic, where you are first speaker [20:20] Okay - sorry ! [20:20] Does anyone have any quick comments on what they have heard before the next topic? [20:20] not I [20:21] no [20:21] no [20:21] no [20:21] apart from that I agree with all that has been sadi [20:21] no [20:21] not I [20:21] Okay, we will now discuss any suggestions for improving the system, who wishes to speak on that? [20:21] aye [20:21] aye [20:21] aye [20:22] aye [20:22] aye [20:22] Okay, Whitehorse had already aksed to speak on this earlier and so will go first, the floor is yours [20:22] Okay - firstly as I said above I'd like to see more possibilities in the rating of an opinion [20:23] like agree/disagree or perhaps the technical side of the writing - grammar etc [20:23] also [20:23] I feel as though maybe there needs to be some kind of moderation [20:23] so that the opinion doesn't go straight onto the site the moment it is written [20:24] I realise that could prove difficult in practice though [20:24] telling me! [20:24] lol [20:24] Okay - handing the floor back before I go on too much :-) [20:24] Lol [20:24] good points whitehorse [20:24] Thank you WH, the floor now passes to Chris [20:24] right, theres two additions I'd like to seethe first is a fifth option in the middle of Useful and Somewhat Useful....... [20:25] because I've had times when to be honest its been hard to decide and because of fear of reprisals I've given a Useful 'just to be on the safe side' [20:26] and second is something thats been commented on in the forums is a mandatory explanation for why you give an NU..... [20:27] Nice point . . . [20:28] Do you not feel that would adversely effect the comments though? [20:28] Have you finished Chris? [20:28] *** Quits: triplecthegame (dooyoo@=OLCK052B15.ipt.aol.com) (Connection reset by peer) [20:28] I think I should tell you off for speaking out of turn Corin! 8-) [20:28] oh dear [20:28] lol Nec [20:28] oops, sorry! [20:28] we'll allow Chris to pick up another turn [20:28] As Chris has gone I guess I should pass the floor to LP [20:29] Thanks Nec [20:29] I think money starts off as the incentive and then recognition and respect take over as the main motivation. [20:29] But how do you get new users to realise this before they VU every opinion they find in order to get read themselves, after all it took me 3 months to realise! [20:29] Take that as Corin's place in the queue to respond to points Nec [20:29] Could there be some guidance as to the ethics / rating system of the DooYoo community mailed to all new users explaining rating for quality. [20:30] Education can be as effective as policing [20:30] And perhaps new users could be offered the assistance of an established dooyooer if they wanted? [20:30] I'd be interested to hear what Corin thinks! [20:30] I pass back the small part of floor on which I am balancing� [20:30] Last week Corin did say guidlines would be added to his list of things to do [20:31] Corin is added to the list of speakers but next on the order is TK [20:31] Thanks [20:31] Firstly some great points [20:32] For me I feel that so long as the usefulness of an opinion affects its visibility there will always be cheats [20:32] people who want to fight to be seen and go a bit too far [20:32] If an op isn't VU in the current system it vanishes [20:33] I'd like to see a different way of ordering the rankings [20:33] a little more random [20:33] *** Joins: triplecthegame (dooyoo@=cWssmk740-1-404-3.btinternet.com) [20:34] I'd also like the ratings themselves to have a meaning [20:34] so say 4 stars means "Great opinion that covered all details needed by any user, good and bad, fairly and in depth" [20:35] while 3 stars means 'Good coverager of both good and bad points' [20:36] 2 stars means 'Good opinion stating why the topic is liked disliked, May not have sufficient depth or fairness for all readers [20:36] 1 star means "More research would greatly improve this opinion" [20:37] If those 'meanings' were right alongside tha rating option itself it would inspire fairer more clear ratings [20:37] Those meanings could then be put into the writing guidelines too [20:37] allowing people to look at what they are about to submit and see for themselves how it may rate [20:38] The current 5 ops [20:38] shown [20:38] the top one could be the most rated op [20:38] but the next should be a random (good or great) positive op [20:38] Liked the topic [20:38] The next would be a neutral op - gave it average stars [20:39] The fourth, a random op that disliked the topic [20:39] and finally, the lowest read op so all ops get a chance to be read [20:40] I feel mandatory comments would be grudging and yes, would spoil the comments section [20:40] I feel that 'editing content' should be uneccesary [20:40] let people submit whatever is what they feel is their best and let the ratings system sort it into use [20:40] NU ops still don't get shown [20:41] except in the 'lowest reads' bit [20:41] I return the floor [20:41] Thank you TK, a lot to think about there. [20:41] Welcome back Chris, did you have anything else to add when you disappeared? [20:41] well I don't know where it cut off to be honest [20:41] my comp went haywire [20:41] I'll tell you privately then [20:41] k [20:41] and second is something thats been commented on in the forums is a mandatory explanation for why you give an NU..... [20:41] Nice point . . . [20:41] Do you not feel that would adversely effect the comments though? [20:42]