Opinionated Community Chat

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<Necropolis> Okay, we will now discuss any suggestions for improving the system, who wishes to speak on that?

<triplecthegame> aye

<whitehorse> aye

<lordpercy> aye

<TheKnight> aye

<kensplace> aye

<Necropolis> Okay, Whitehorse had already aksed to speak on this earlier and so will go first, the floor is yours

<whitehorse> Okay - firstly as I said above I'd like to see more possibilities in the rating of an opinion

<whitehorse> like agree/disagree or perhaps the technical side of the writing - grammar etc

<whitehorse> also

<whitehorse> I feel as though maybe there needs to be some kind of moderation

<whitehorse> so that the opinion doesn't go straight onto the site the moment it is written

<whitehorse> I realise that could prove difficult in practice though

<Corin> telling me!

<TheKnight> lol

<whitehorse> Okay - handing the floor back before I go on too much :-)

<Necropolis> Lol

<TheKnight> good points whitehorse

<Necropolis> Thank you WH, the floor now passes to Chris

<triplecthegame> right, theres two additions I'd like to seethe first is a fifth option in the middle of Useful and Somewhat Useful.......

<triplecthegame> because I've had times when to be honest its been hard to decide and because of fear of reprisals I've given a Useful 'just to be on the safe side'

<triplecthegame> and second is something thats been commented on in the forums is a mandatory explanation for why you give an NU.....

<Corin> Nice point . . .

<Corin> Do you not feel that would adversely effect the comments though?

<Necropolis> Have you finished Chris?

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<Necropolis> I think I should tell you off for speaking out of turn Corin! 8-)

<sue_ellen> oh dear

<sue_ellen> lol Nec

<Corin> oops, sorry!

<TheKnight> we'll allow Chris to pick up another turn

<Necropolis> As Chris has gone I guess I should pass the floor to LP

<lordpercy> Thanks Nec

<lordpercy> I think money starts off as the incentive and then recognition and respect take over as the main motivation.

<lordpercy> But how do you get new users to realise this before they VU every opinion they find in order to get read themselves, after all it took me 3 months to realise!

<TheKnight> Take that as Corin's place in the queue to respond to points Nec

<lordpercy> Could there be some guidance as to the ethics / rating system of the DooYoo community mailed to all new users explaining rating for quality.

<lordpercy> Education can be as effective as policing

<lordpercy> And perhaps new users could be offered the assistance of an established dooyooer if they wanted?

<lordpercy> I'd be interested to hear what Corin thinks!

<lordpercy> I pass back the small part of floor on which I am balancing…

<Necropolis> Last week Corin did say guidlines would be added to his list of things to do

<Necropolis> Corin is added to the list of speakers but next on the order is TK

<TheKnight> Thanks

<TheKnight> Firstly some great points

<TheKnight> For me I feel that so long as the usefulness of an opinion affects its visibility there will always be cheats

<TheKnight> people who want to fight to be seen and go a bit too far

<TheKnight> If an op isn't VU in the current system it vanishes

<TheKnight> I'd like to see a different way of ordering the rankings

<TheKnight> a little more random

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<TheKnight> I'd also like the ratings themselves to have a meaning

<TheKnight> so say 4 stars means "Great opinion that covered all details needed by any user, good and bad, fairly and in depth"

<TheKnight> while 3 stars means 'Good coverage of both good and bad points'

<TheKnight> 2 stars means 'Good opinion stating why the topic is liked disliked, May not have sufficient depth or fairness for all readers

<TheKnight> 1 star means "More research would greatly improve this opinion"

<TheKnight> If those 'meanings' were right alongside tha rating option itself it would inspire fairer more clear ratings

<TheKnight> Those meanings could then be put into the writing guidelines too

<TheKnight> allowing people to look at what they are about to submit and see for themselves how it may rate

<TheKnight> The current 5 ops shown

<TheKnight> the top one could be the most rated op

<TheKnight> but the next should be a random (good or great) positive op

<TheKnight> Liked the topic

<TheKnight> The next would be a neutral op - gave it average stars

<TheKnight> The fourth, a random op that disliked the topic

<TheKnight> and finally, the lowest read op so all ops get a chance to be read

<TheKnight> I feel mandatory comments would be grudging and yes, would spoil the comments section

<TheKnight> I feel that 'editing content' should be uneccesary

<TheKnight> let people submit whatever is what they feel is their best and let the ratings system sort it into use

<TheKnight> NU ops still don't get shown

<TheKnight> except in the 'lowest reads' bit

<TheKnight> I return the floor

<Necropolis> Thank you TK, a lot to think about there.

<Necropolis> Welcome back Chris, did you have anything else to add when you disappeared?

<triplecthegame> well I don't know where it cut off to be honest

<triplecthegame> my comp went haywire

<Necropolis> I'll tell you privately then

<triplecthegame> k

<TheKnight> <triplecthegame> and second is something thats been commented on in the forums is a mandatory explanation for why you give an NU.....

<TheKnight> <Corin> Nice point . . .

<TheKnight> <Corin> Do you not feel that would adversely effect the comments though?

<Necropolis> But we need to press on so next is Ken on suggestions for improving the system

<kensplace> thanks

<kensplace> After a not useful rating, how about dooyoo automatically checks the next few opinions to ensure they are suitable, obviously the n.u rating would have to be checked by dooyoo to see that it is deserved and not a mistake/misunderstanding or revenge rating.

<kensplace> I think this would pretty much stop churners.

<kensplace> I would also like to see some form of agree / disagree rating

<kensplace> as some ops I strongly disagree with , but realise its still a

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<kensplace> usefull opinion.

<kensplace> A "I have no idea rating" - for the times I feel unable to rate.

<kensplace> Also if dooyoo could look into the problem with the way the ops

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<kensplace> are ranked in the lists (see my op on prostition for a classic

<kensplace> example of what i mean) It would be great, as some ops are rated

<TheKnight> lol plugger

<kensplace> way down the list even though they are more useful than ones near the top!

<kensplace> lol

<kensplace> Guidelines on how to rate, and maybe some examples would be good to (maybe we could all write some, and submit to dooyoo as ideas?)

<kensplace> Also what about a section on DooYoo for dooYooers to write ops about improvements for dooyoo?

<kensplace> Effective policing (both human and automatic (can be done)) should be introduced. This imho really needs a lot of thought, and would help out no end if it was succesfully handled.

<kensplace> (this is a *very* difficult topic, but I feel that at least serial abusers should be targetted and given a chance to improve or leave)

<kensplace> I agree with lordpercy's assistance thing, we could have ppl who could mentor newbies, if they so desire.

<kensplace> As for mandatory comments, i dont like that idea, if I rate N.U

<kensplace> then its because its *obvious* to most that its a n.u, and I stand by that rating and dont mind it being checked out. Churners / cartels etc rate n.u *obviously* unfairly, and are easily checked out as fake ratings.

<kensplace> I pass the floor back before i talk all night :)

<Necropolis> Ken raises some good question as to why my prosititution op isn't top. 8-)

<Necropolis> Sue had requested to speak and so you now have the floor

<Necropolis> Sue has to type slowly by the way

<TheKnight> Baby on board?

<Necropolis> Yup, don't want people thinking she's not there

<sue_ellen> most of my points have already been mentioned.. but would just like to add that maybe more prominent advertising of the various clubs would help people to see there's more to dooyoo than the money , there's a community too

<sue_ellen> thats s all

<Necropolis> Thank you Sue. Corin commented earlier and it is only fair he speaks as he's the reason we are doing this, so the floor is Corin's

<Corin> Thanks

<Corin> I am very interested by all of these great ideas

<Corin> There are a few points that always keep me awake on this subject

<Corin> really awake!

<Corin> Firstly I really know that the community we have at dooyoo will in time and with the right level of management find a way to stop the abuse, we will all profit by keeping the trash limited

<Corin> And the rating system, which if were treated properly would work but doesn't, does need attention.

<Corin> I loved TKs ideas on a new system and I very much agree with Lord percy that education will be a better solution than policing

<Corin> Sues point about introducing the community is something that we are really hoping will work when we launch the redesign the

<Corin> one thing at a time . . . .

<Corin> Rating - 60% of our content is rated VU

<Corin> The best ops often don't make it to the top 5

<Corin> We are not providing as good a service as the content we have could

<Corin> We have made a stance against the churners

<Corin> We may well look at identifying the churners and only paying them a small proportion of what they deserve

<Corin> The incentive of money to me is causing problems but we will not stop paying

<Corin> people only want to be at the top (for the most part) to make cash

<Corin> When they really learn about us all in the communnity that is the moment when they often turn . .

<Corin> profiling our community . . . . . is the way ahead.

<Corin> We have a new section coming soley for it

<Corin> The mentoring is being dconsidered very carefully

<Corin> I personally love the idea

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<Corin> we do it here in the offices for our Community Managers

<Corin> The redesign will be coming Jan / Feb

<Corin> We also really would like to solve the ratings

<Corin> Would the 5th rating be mediocre ;) ?

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<TheKnight> Almost useful? :)

<Corin> Does the floor agree that TKs suggestion about the change of perspective from usefullness to a more product orientated fashion of displaying th would work?

<Corin> Over to you

<kensplace> Not all ops are about products tho

<Necropolis> Thank you Corin

<Corin> oops typo . . .

<Necropolis> Whitehorse has had to leave but said goodbye and thank you all for the discussion. Chris left for real this time too 8-)

<Necropolis> The floor wil be opened for comments but first zebra wished to speak

<zebra> Thanks for all that Corin - and sorry to change the subject a bit. I would like to ask Corin if, in theory at least, all crowned ops ought to be VU?

<Corin> Interesting . . . . .

<Necropolis> I've been told that Crowns will be next weeks topic

<Corin> Our major problem with Crowns is that it is really the only thing we visibly CHOSE . . . . democacy needed we think

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<Necropolis> So I'm afraid that will have to wait although I thank you for a an answer to tide us over

<zebra> Oh sorry - But if we had an example from the managers of VU it might help.

<Necropolis> A very popular topic with lots to think about.

<Necropolis> TK raised a good point, that while the top five ops need be useful it is not necessary for them to be the best.

<Necropolis> The top 5 should make them the only ones read which would be to the detriment of other writers those who come first having an unfair advantage over later writers.

<Necropolis> Does anybody have quick comments they wish to make TKs "product orientated" on anythingh else mentioned?

<lordpercy> aye

<Corin> aye

<kensplace> just i may get cut off soon, so bye in advance

<JillMurphy> I just wanted to suggest that a fifth rating could be used as a member crown nomination.

<Necropolis> Okay TK the floor is back to you

<TheKnight> Do others feel that getting away from ranking based order of display would take away the cause for manipulating ratings - i.e. the financial bit. Would offering instead random 'good or better' ops one each of for the topic, against the topic, and neutral to the topic, offer the reader a better selection of advice?

<lordpercy> I liked Tk's thoughts but wouldn't want to throw out the ranking of ops totally, perhaps 1 or 2 random ops per day shown on the main page

<imright_ish> TK suggestion on rating categories is a move in the right direction making it more friendly, inviting true ratings

<TheKnight> Secondly, do others feel that some 'example ops with example rankings in the new guidelines would help people to 'get it'

<TheKnight> floor returned

<kensplace> yes

<Necropolis> LP, was that the comment you said aye to make?

<zebra> yes

<lordpercy> indeed sorry to jump in!

<TheKnight> :)

<Necropolis> That's okay, TK asked a question and it fitted in well 8-)

<Necropolis> Corin was the only other speaker so I return the floor in that direction

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<Necropolis> Lisa sends her apologies as she had to leave

<TheKnight> I think we could possibly ask the questions in order and let people respond directly

<TheKnight> for just two questions :)

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<Necropolis> I agree, that was why I let it happen

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<Corin> OK

<Necropolis> There youare Corin, we were worried

<Corin> Sorry - phone went - mother : )

<sue_ellen> lol

<kensplace> lol

<Necropolis> lol

<Corin> If we were to take the emphasis away from useful and made it more objective - would this act as a disincentive to write well?

<TheKnight> not if reads were still good

<Corin> Like if a product is definately a 5 star - would a churner bang in a 1 star for the hell of it?

<Corin> over to you

<TheKnight> (sorry) :)

<Corin> : )

<Necropolis> Anyone else wish to respond to that before the final topic?

<kensplace> aye

<Necropolis> Go ahead Ken

<sue_ellen> sorry if I appear slow - I'm not quite sure what you mean Corin

<kensplace> Just that churners will always throw a spanner in the works, whatever the method

<kensplace> Its how we remove the spanner that counts

<kensplace> floor back

<Necropolis> During the additional comments people can feel free to jump in if the time is appropriate, such as a question having been asked.

<lordpercy> How about using the thumbs up and down to show if you agree with the topic etc....

<lordpercy> and stars for the writer

<Corin> damage limitation vs. ruining incentive to write well

<TheKnight> If everyone liked a product (all positve reviews) would someone write a negative one to be guaranteed a chance of being seen as the only balancing (negative) review

<Corin> thanks TK . .

<TheKnight> and if so, wouldn't that actually be a good thing

<Necropolis> Okay then, our final topic may have been partially addressed: suggestions for replacing the current system, do we have any speakers?

<TheKnight> encouraging balance?

<Corin> Fingers crossed!

<TheKnight> :)

<lordpercy> aye

<Necropolis> LP, the floor and the whole topic (!) is yours

<TheKnight> aye

<kensplace> aye

<lordpercy> star system for writing capabilities ie 1 - 5 stars a lot less negative than VU - NU

<TheKnight> (not so fast Mr LP :) )

<lordpercy> sorry

<Necropolis> Continue LP, I gave you the floor

<lordpercy> TA

<TheKnight> oops was kidding - about whole point to yourself LP *embarassed*

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<lordpercy> and use of the somewhat confusing thumbs up / down for agreeing with the topic of the opinion

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<lordpercy> thats all!

<Necropolis> Thank you LP. As more people jumped in late next the floor passes to TK

<Corin> The ThU and ThD we removed from the product level - it didn't seem to work

<TheKnight> I too would like to see a fifth option

<Corin> check dooyoo.es for an example of it at work

<TheKnight> I'd like to see a five star ratings system

<TheKnight> stars are more neutral to give than an indictment-like NU

<TheKnight> and stars also denote pro guides - ratings for hotels and restaurants

<TheKnight> we'd love to be a 'five star' writer :)

<TheKnight> thats my lot

<Necropolis> Wouldn't stars for writing be confused with stars for opinion on the product though?

<Necropolis> Anyway next the floor passes to KEn

<kensplace> thanks

<TheKnight> Only by people who couldn't count them anyway :)

<Corin> Thumbs?

<kensplace> Thumbs confuse me

<kensplace> I think that stars are good, but im not convinced yet

<kensplace> I prefer to think of dooyoo "improving" the current system rather

<kensplace> than replacing it.

<kensplace> floor back

<TheKnight> hear hear

<Necropolis> I liked it when people thumbed up or down 'Suggested items...'!

<Necropolis> Any quick comments on what has been said on replacement systems before a brief free free for all on ratings?

<zebra> Rating VU-NU is relevant if it regards decision making on products but stars are better for opinions on speakers corner and other topics. The problem with ThU etc is that they appear on your profile.

<Corin> true

<Necropolis> I agree zebra, I think the problem is people not wanting to say something is 'Not Useful'

<TheKnight> yes

<Necropolis> zero stars would be the same thing but less offensive

<lordpercy> It is vital that we keep a way of recognising excellent writers ie: star system but we need a way of agreeing with the topic even if you do / don't like the writers style. The two need to be separated

<TheKnight> I think it would be easier for people to award one star than to say 'not useful'

<Corin> True again - perception is a strange thing.

<TheKnight> combine that with the 'meanings' suggestion to inspire a real set meaning to the ratings levels ... and we should instantly see improvement

<Corin> I find NU sometimes sounds like . . . idiot

<sue_ellen> why not make NU - "room for improvement" or something constructive

<TheKnight> Yes Corin

<kensplace> I agree with sue

<Necropolis> Is the problem the ratings system then or just psychology?

<TheKnight> both

<Corin> Both . . . . . . I hope the new guidelines will help this . . .

<TheKnight> the psychology of greed and the psychology of not insulting people both make the ratings system fail at present I feel

<sue_ellen> both - as in life! ;o)

<kensplace> lol @sue

<zebra> We certainly need some examples of NU on the guidelines then people wouldn't feel so bad.

<Corin> true TK